Tigers

[DMack]

I thought I’d post this over here, because I know there will be honest discussion permitted.

I’m curious to know what you would do if you were the Tiger CEO. There has been much talk and debate about the methods used for the sales, but what would you do if you were the mastermind?

I’d love to think everyone would say they’d sell for cost, but that’s pretty unrealistic. If you’re the Tiger CEO, do you offload at better prices and know a great majority of your “customers” are just going to try to insta-flip to make as many pennies as they can, or do you do like the current CEO and price them to where it limits a lot of that?

I know Ken is not liked by several at the moment, but I’ve always had excellent experiences with him, and those started long before the Tiger debacle. Prior to the Tigers, I’m betting you couldn’t find many to say a bad word about him.

I know the chips are also up for great debate. Personally, I love them. I know the flash and pizazz doesn’t suit everyone, but I think John is the best chip designer there is.

If you pay attention to the home game threads, you’ll know I have a set of V1s. I would love to have some of the new ones, but I don’t have the financial capabilities to do so. I think they’re beautiful.

Anyway, I just wanted to get some takes and thoughts in an area where discussion is allowed.

 

[Gorbash]

do you offload at better prices and know a great majority of your “customers” are just going to try to insta-flip to make as many pennies as they can, or do you do like the current CEO and price them to where it limits a lot of that?

In this hypothetical I'd want to sell close to FMV to avoid the flipping for profit issue; I made the investment and took the risk, but I'd want to try and accurately figure out FMV in advance. To do so, I'd run simultaneous auctions for each denomination informing bidders how many of each rack exists and then just see where the FMV lands per denomination. I'd probably do this a few times for each demonization and then offer racks of each denomination based on their denomination-specific auction results. I only collect lead, so I was never going to be in the Tiger market (even though they are very nice-looking chips), but if I were in the Tiger market, I'd have been frustrated by the lack of transparency in terms of how many of each denomination existed (at least I never saw any public information related to quantities) and the selling methodology that seemed to be aimed at trying to make things appear more scarce than they actually were (at least that was my perception in real time, but maybe I was wrong).

 

[Jimmy Pancakes]

This is an excellent question.

You bring up a good and fair point about including the flip factor into the initial pricing. Not something I had previously thought of to be honest. In this scenario, I think you kind of have too.

TBH, now that I think about it, I would probably do the same thing if it were me.

I view the Tigers as a business deal. He developed a product (with design help), put his capital up to produce the product, became a vendor, went to mkt, and sold his product. I have no issues with that.

 

[STuDioSuRFiNG]

I honestly think there are too many people getting a cut. Just my guess here but someone from the original boat chips likely has a connect who can sell you 50k chips no questions if his commission is a bit heavy

GPI rep gets a big commission.
OG NAGB hookup will play connect for a cut
So at that point you’re probably looking at $3-4 a chip baseline before the front man adds markup
Still to justify $12 for those you’d need to really bend yourself into pretzels and say it’s a net community good
But they are still lining up burning money and trading away grail sets so I guess I’m an idiot
I’ll stick to my own unicorns

 

[Gorbash]

I honestly think there are too many people getting a cut. Just my guess here but someone from the original boat chips likely has a connect who can sell you 50k chips no questions if his commission is a bit heavy

GPI rep gets a big commission.
OG NAGB hookup will play connect for a cut
So at that point you’re probably looking at $3-4 a chip baseline before the front man adds markup
Still to justify $12 for those you’d need to really bend yourself into pretzels and say it’s a net community good
But they are still lining up burning money and trading away grail sets so I guess I’m an idiot
I’ll stick to my own unicorns
View attachment 8058
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Dibs

 

[STuDioSuRFiNG]

Dibs

You’re accepting RH&C now??

 

[The Chip Spa]

There’s always going to be a flip. No matter what. Regardless if anyone thinks that saint Ken has stopped the flip by pricing them high all he’s really done is take any perceived profit for himself he stopped nothing but at the bank. So in a sense he’s simply cut any one else from profiting further. That’s not stopping the flip.

If he wanted to be a chippers chipper he could have put a reasonable margin for his work and then completely disclosed the numbers, number produced and the cost. That’s how you “be real” with the “community”. The value of chips is what someone’s willing to pay. Ken’s move to hide production numbers (fake rarity) and costs are purely out of greed. Period.

People will do what they do.

The “Tiger” ceo to me shows his true intent.

 

[Gorbash]

You’re accepting RH&C now??

You had me at unicorns haha!

 

[Himewad]

I was really surprised how many people fell over themselves trying to purchase the Tiger chips at those prices. Some of the chips are really great, but an average of $10 per chip seems excessive. Especially when sets with more historic value sell for much less. Personally, I would much rather have a set of the TRK Starlite chips. But even those are out of my price range. Which is totally fine. I'm very happy that I landed on my CPC customs at $3-ish per chip.

But to answer the question, if I were the CEO, and my cost was $3 to $5 per chip, I would have a hard time charging people in my community $10+ per chip. I would definitely take a profit. But we haven't seen these chips re-selling for Ken+ prices, have we? People either re-sell at Ken prices, or they have to take a loss if they really want to unload them.

But again, people keep proving that the demand for $10+ chips is out there, so who am I to say how much profit is too much? I am pro-capitalism. There is a delicate balance between profit-taking and saying you are doing this for the community. You can't max out profits and community goodwill at the same time.

The Tiger CEO made a decision to squeeze every ounce of juice out of that lemon, and it seems the customers are there to reward him for it. Which again, I'm fine with. That's his decision. I think many people would handle his venture exactly the same way that he did. I also think that many more people would have landed at a lower price point in an attempt to strike a balance between profit-taking and bringing cool new chips to the community.

 

[KingZilla]

People are going to do what they're going to do. Looking at it from the premise of the OP: ANY product that is in demand but is accessible by only one person is going to be priced for maximum profit, ergo, a monopoly. Thankfully you can still get compression molded chips from CPC at less than the monopoly price. So if a product offered by only one source is priced accordingly, only the "rich" can afford it and the masses will be left out. So be it. I do believe in free market competition.
The only thing that bothers me about all of these NAGB deals is that they are conducted, somewhat clandestinely, on a forum dedicated to Chip enthusiasts. Community?? I will state that I don't follow NAGBs, so perhaps the chips are being offered to EVERYONE on the forum. If so, I stand corrected.
For example, the Pharaoh chips were commissioned and sold by the proprietors (and others) over at Chip Talk, but not at multiples of the price obtained and were available to anyone that wanted to buy them - at what I consider a reasonable price. Yes, things were different then because Paulson chips were offered to the public from numerous sources at that time.
Fast forward to when Paulson chips were no longer available to the public. The "boat" chips were commissioned by a group on a "Chip" forum (again - community???) and sold the Pharaoh way but ONLY to a privileged few. Those were then flipped by some.
But back to the point. Once you sell your product for whatever price you demand, then what does it matter to you what the new owner of the product does with it after the sale? It shouldn't. If it does, then I dare say you are a "chip n a z i" (for those familiar with the "soup n a z i" from Seinfeld).
My feelings as a "chip nut" are that this has nothing to do with helping ALL fellow enthusiasts obtain the most desirable. And I'm not saying they pretend to do so. Due to Paulson's current policy, I doubt you'll see a public website offering these chips as I'm sure Paulson would have it shut down, trace the chips made and refuse to manufacture chips for that person ever again. Because I do believe in free market competition, I think it would behoove Paulson to sell to the public again, even if through legitimate vendors such as Apache. Whoever owns the former Hispania chip equipment should take a long hard look at the prices they could get if they put it back into use. Maybe because premium chips are not a universally sought commodity, the customer base isn't large enough even though we are "chip nuts" and relish this product. Apparently, that's why Blue Chip Co. sold out to GPI, because they were no longer making sufficient profit. I can live without premium chips. Maybe some China manufacturer will come up with compression molded chips and kill the market here again as they seem to be doing with ceramic chips. But for now, things are they way they are and I have to accept that. Personally, I will steer clear of NAGB's at inflated prices. I don't berate anyone availing themselves of NAGBs: If you want a Ferrari and you can pay for it, more power to you.
Sorry for the long rant.

 

[DMack]

Many great points made by all. I agree with about everything that’s been stated.

I have never been one of those to chase the new, shiny objects, and I have completely steered clear of the NAGB chips except for the rare occasion where a decent “community” member has offered them at great prices. For whatever reason (I blame John), I got overtaken with Tiger fever. I just think John is a genius when it comes to chip design, and these suckers captivated me.

If I had it to do all over again, and I definitely wish I could, I wouldn’t have purchased any. As much as I love them, they completely crippled my fairly strict chipping budget, and the reality is there’s no way I could recoup that money. To be honest, I felt led to believe the chips were a lot more rare than what proved to be true, but I guess one could argue that was a smart business decision.

What I am COMPLETELY perplexed by is those that have lined up with foam coming from their mouth to deal their old school sets in pursuit of the Tigers. As much as I am enthralled with the Tigers, nothing compares to the real casino stuff, IMO. But, this has been another brilliant move by the proprietors, because they have been able to extract some truly amazing sets.

From a business sense, I really don’t think I can fault them. As much as I wish they could have been more affordable to mere plebs like me, there are just far too many in the “community” that would push their own mother in front of a train if it meant they could get the nickel she had been standing on. I’m capitalist to the core, but what really gets me over there are the group that virtue signal and flag wave about how everyone should be entitled to everything and that freebies and handouts should be a requirement…they’re the ones doing absolutely everything possible, in every shady way possible, to extract every damn penny they can (here’s looking at you, ReallyAwfulUser, you pathetic, pompous, prick). I’ll tell you how I really feel at another time!

Great discussion, and I appreciate seeing everyone’s thoughts.

 

[DuckPlug]

What I am COMPLETELY perplexed by is those that have lined up with foam coming from their mouth to deal their old school sets in pursuit of the Tigers.

People are “EASY” @DMack. If you look around in any direction, it’s not that difficult to see in almost everything.
But despite all the “EASY” going around, there are those of us who find it even more “EASY” to hold on to our true selves.

Still in the stable.

(I blame John), I got overtaken with Tiger fever. I just think John is a genius when it comes to chip design, and these suckers captivated me.

John is a great guy and a true visionary and artist when it comes to chip design. Although I personally would never trade away my sets for ANY NAGB chips, John would give me as many Tigers in as many breakdowns as I wanted for either of my two sets pictured above.

Don’t believe me? Just ask him.

John is a great guy hands down. I’ve splashed pots with him and had good honest conversation with him.
For myself anyway, it’s his business partners I’m not all that found of. I’ve seen and know of some of the things they say and do and they just don’t impress me much.

If I had it to do all over again, and I definitely wish I could, I wouldn’t have purchased any.

I don’t know @DMack? That’s kinda like me saying I’d never go and marry my ex wife again. Having foresight is difficult, learning from an experience is invaluable.
You just can’t explain these things to the “EASY,” they will go on and on repeating themselves through life.

From a business sense, I really don’t think I can fault them.

You can’t really, because it is after all conducted in a business form you and I agree in whole heartedly.
That being said, it certainly doesn’t mean we can’t poke some fun at it.

 

[The Chip Spa]

Again, Lets just face it. The dude does NOTHING for the community. PERIOD. He gave one set to someone at "Cost" or $2 a chip and when revealed said it wasn't cost. Then why tell them it was cost? A lie.
Said he was out to bust the NAGB market and then just went Full NAGB. Lie.

Dudes a liar. And a con man. oh wait, that's me.... or is it? In honor of @NotoriousBJ3 I have to take a jab at ol Tommy Who called me that and wouldn't or couldn't provide any evidence of the statement he made, ANOTHER LIAR. PCF is a NAGB as its another scramble for cash. Says he makes not dime one. TOTAL LIAR.

AND JUST SOME CLARIFICATION: If you want to make money, GOOD!!! WE ALL DO. I love for folks to make money. But just say it. Say, "I'm here to make money" and were all good with it. BE REAL! Not a douchebag.
Or are some afraid of choice.

 

[kcking22]

There's one person who's opinion on this I'd love to hear from and that's Jim at The Chip Room (TCR). I often wonder how he feels after selling his chips for a modest profit and then sees them flipped for profit. I mean it irritates the fuck out of me when I see chips he sold for $100/rack being resold for $200/rack and up. I wonder how he views Tiger chips being sold for 400% mark-up?

 

[DMack]

There's one person who's opinion on this I'd love to hear from and that's Jim at The Chip Room (TCR). I often wonder how he feels after selling his chips for a modest profit and then sees them flipped for profit. I mean it irritates the fuck out of me when I see chips he sold for $100/rack being resold for $200/rack and up. I wonder how he views Tiger chips being sold for 400% mark-up?

I really think that’s just part of his business plan. I believe he knows he could extract a lot more per rack, but instead of selling out in mere days (or minutes, depending on the chips), he’d have to sit on them for extended periods of time. I just don’t think he cares about the flippers because he continually sells to those that are most blatant about it.

 

[Admodeus]

There's one person who's opinion on this I'd love to hear from and that's Jim at The Chip Room (TCR). I often wonder how he feels after selling his chips for a modest profit and then sees them flipped for profit. I mean it irritates the fuck out of me when I see chips he sold for $100/rack being resold for $200/rack and up. I wonder how he views Tiger chips being sold for 400% mark-up?

if you get the price you want for something, what someone does with them after that shouldn't be no concern. If you gave a good price to someone thinking it would be appreciated as something they really wanted and they turned around and sold them for more, that would be bull#$@!.

 

[memecity]

Many great points made by all. I agree with about everything that’s been stated.

I have never been one of those to chase the new, shiny objects, and I have completely steered clear of the NAGB chips except for the rare occasion where a decent “community” member has offered them at great prices. For whatever reason (I blame John), I got overtaken with Tiger fever. I just think John is a genius when it comes to chip design, and these suckers captivated me.

If I had it to do all over again, and I definitely wish I could, I wouldn’t have purchased any. As much as I love them, they completely crippled my fairly strict chipping budget, and the reality is there’s no way I could recoup that money. To be honest, I felt led to believe the chips were a lot more rare than what proved to be true, but I guess one could argue that was a smart business decision.

What I am COMPLETELY perplexed by is those that have lined up with foam coming from their mouth to deal their old school sets in pursuit of the Tigers. As much as I am enthralled with the Tigers, nothing compares to the real casino stuff, IMO. But, this has been another brilliant move by the proprietors, because they have been able to extract some truly amazing sets.

From a business sense, I really don’t think I can fault them. As much as I wish they could have been more affordable to mere plebs like me, there are just far too many in the “community” that would push their own mother in front of a train if it meant they could get the nickel she had been standing on. I’m capitalist to the core, but what really gets me over there are the group that virtue signal and flag wave about how everyone should be entitled to everything and that freebies and handouts should be a requirement…they’re the ones doing absolutely everything possible, in every shady way possible, to extract every damn penny they can (here’s looking at you, ReallyAwfulUser, you pathetic, pompous, prick). I’ll tell you how I really feel at another time!

Great discussion, and I appreciate seeing everyone’s thoughts.

Completely agree. John has done a fantastic job with this set. I have a set of Tigers myself, but I would never trade sets with history for them. I'm fortunate enough to be able to afford "Ken pricing", but I will never spend a dime more.

It is sad that people are paying more than "Ken pricing" for NAGB chips! But people can do what they want with their money.

 

[The Chip Spa]

if you get the price you want for something, what someone does with them after that shouldn't be no concern. If you gave a good price to someone thinking it would be appreciated as something they really wanted and they turned around and sold them for more, that would be bull#$@!.

 

[Jimmy Pancakes]

if you get the price you want for something, what someone does with them after that shouldn't be no concern.

EDIT: I didn’t read your entire post - you clarified and I agree. Carry on Sir!

I think need to select the “ornery” mood emoji today - lol.

—————————————————————-
I disagree. When it comes to hobbies, if someone hooks me up with something to complete or further a project I’m working on for a good deal (below max value) and I turn around and sell it for 2x a couple months later, that makes me a d-bag.

If I’m trying to unload my old lawnmower and sell it for $50 and the guy fixes it up and sells it for $100, more power to him.

The first scenario is being an ass-hat b/c I damn well know I got hooked up by someone playing the hobby forward. In return I gave them a big fat FU for hooking me up. (The seller damn well knows they could’ve sold it for more, they CHOSE not to…)

The second scenario the buyer and I both damn well know my garbage won’t pick up the mower and he’s doing me a favor taking it for $50.

 

[UniLover]

I said this over at orange and I'll post it here:
"Tiger Palace chips and its story from concept, design, production, first wave sale, VIP sale, and who knows what else + effect on poker chip market would make such a fantastic MBA thesis project!"

Tiger CEO is brilliant. First of all the design is fantastic. Then building up the anticipation for them and the mystery around true number/cost... And now the second wave?! I bet the plan all along was to wait til secondary market drops below original pricing, then bring out the second wave. And then because there's a second wave coming, there was a massive sell off of other chips.

To echo the comment with TCR and to combat flippers and to answer the OP, I would price them as high as possible to try to deter flipper and maximize my own profit since I took the risk to produce a product that who knows would be wanted or not. There are NAGB chips where I'm like why would people buy this?!?!

One could argue what Tiger CEO truly adds to the community but there is no argument it is a lot effort, time, energy, and MONEY to have a successful NAGB and bring a concept into reality.

For the record, I had a set of hot stamps and sold them because I went full lead thanks to @Gorbash! I was lucky to not lose money on them.