Death of clay?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Pinkdan
  • Start date Start date
  • Replies Replies: Replies 19
  • Views Views: Views 350
Pinkdan

Pinkdan

FORUM SUPPORTER
Messages
30
Reaction score
107
Will clay chips ever die?

These ceramics are getting better and better (apparently) I’m out of the loop and haven’t checked out these new hybrid greeks or whatever else is out.

It’s impressive but will that kill the clay market for good? Or will there always be a split market that thrives?

Thoughts?

-Dan
 
Interesting question. I think we all wonder this as we see the move from casinos towards non-clay chips like Icons.

I don't think the new hybrid Greek molds will kill clay chips. I think the casinos and/or GPI will kill clay chips. Outside of casinos and card rooms, Paulson clay chips aren't available to the masses outside of already existing chips, with just a select few with access to GPI outside of that to order/make new chips. CPC is a great resource, but you will almost never get your value out of what you paid ordering them, their spots and colors aren't as desirable to most as GPI's, and you can copy someone else's chips. So for clay chips to die, the casinos or GPI need to say "No more" to them.

I don't think casinos really care much, if at all, about the "quality" of poker chips. If they did, they would never order RHCs when they wear much more quickly and they would clean their chips every once in a while (or more often than they do). You would also see at least some thought into making nice designs, which doesn't seem to happen as much as we chippers would think or like. Cost is going to be near the top of the list in my opinion.

The questions that I think stem from your questions are "How important is security?" and "Do non-clay chips provide enough security for casinos?" Copying a non-clay chip is likely a lot easier than copying a clay chip from a company that limits who can order chips with them and refuses to copy identical chips of other casinos. I think this alone would give casinos pause to move from clay chips. That said, we already see it happening.

My bigger worry with clay to your thriving market question is that all clay chips might eventually become like TRKs--only a handful have them, which results in them becoming so valuable and rare that they aren't accessible and thus become an afterthought for many. There is basically no market for TRKs outside of @The Chip Spa, @kaimat, and a select few finding the rare hoard and being willing to share with the community. No one sells outside of the TRK club generally and I would bet trading happens rarely. We are already starting to see something similar with leaded THCs.

When the well dries up for NAGBs and The Chip Room sales, I think non-clay chips will eventually become much more important. But it will be because clay chips go away on their own, not because non-clay chips killed them off.
 
UnicornFlash said:
Interesting question. I think we all wonder this as we see the move from casinos towards non-clay chips like Icons.

I don't think the new hybrid Greek molds will kill clay chips. I think the casinos and/or GPI will kill clay chips. Outside of casinos and card rooms, Paulson clay chips aren't available to the masses outside of already existing chips, with just a select few with access to GPI outside of that to order/make new chips. CPC is a great resource, but you will almost never get your value out of what you paid ordering them, their spots and colors aren't as desirable to most as GPI's, and you can copy someone else's chips. So for clay chips to die, the casinos or GPI need to say "No more" to them.

I don't think casinos really care much, if at all, about the "quality" of poker chips. If they did, they would never order RHCs when they wear much more quickly and they would clean their chips every once in a while (or more often than they do). You would also see at least some thought into making nice designs, which doesn't seem to happen as much as we chippers would think or like. Cost is going to be near the top of the list in my opinion.

The questions that I think stem from your questions are "How important is security?" and "Do non-clay chips provide enough security for casinos?" Copying a non-clay chip is likely a lot easier than copying a clay chip from a company that limits who can order chips with them and refuses to copy identical chips of other casinos. I think this alone would give casinos pause to move from clay chips. That said, we already see it happening.

My bigger worry with clay to your thriving market question is that all clay chips might eventually become like TRKs--only a handful have them, which results in them becoming so valuable and rare that they aren't accessible and thus become an afterthought for many. There is basically no market for TRKs outside of @The Chip Spa, @kaimat, and a select few finding the rare hoard and being willing to share with the community. No one sells outside of the TRK club generally and I would bet trading happens rarely. We are already starting to see something similar with leaded THCs.

When the well dries up for NAGBs and The Chip Room sales, I think non-clay chips will eventually become much more important. But it will be because clay chips go away on their own, not because non-clay chips killed them off.
Click to expand...
Very well stated.
 
I guess you also have to consider how small our hobby is in the real world, not in the stated number of members of a web site or a collectables club. If your a CASINO CHIP collector, that's one thing. If you're a poker chip collector that's very different. PCF 13,000 members (🤣) PCDC 500 members (50% are the same as PCF), The CCA 1000 members, assorted other clubs and organizations. The smaller the market, the easier it is for a person or a group of people to manipulate it. Angel Playing Card Co., formerly Paulson Chip and Dice, formerly GPI is obviously moving to allow sales to the public as long as orders are big enough, this is obvious by the number of these NAGB poker chips. it seems obvious that this is the case as now we're hearing that the newest set of $10 chips called Tigers is the product of a second order placed with Angel. or were they ordered with the original sets and held back? We were told in threads that this Tiger order was a one off and burned down it its completion and there would be no more and suddenly there was more, there's the manipulation. Some call it the "Mystery" of quantity and cost. Were supposed to believe that a $2. chip comes to $4 or $5 after crating and shipping (Further manipulation), well I'll go into the crating and shipping of poker chips myself if there is a $3 per chip upcharge to be had. (that doesn't even make sense).

TRK's are numbered in the 1000's and yes, somewhat locked down. 1000's alone locked up in Beverly Hills and left to live in a dark cabinet un-played and in my estimation unappreciated waiting for the total dry up and controlled sale. another manipulation.

Leaded THC's, while numbering in great multiples of TRK's, same case. There is 10's of 1000's, locked down.

As far as clay in general there is 100's of 1000's of them, locked and not locked.

Clay chips will be around for a long time to come as the ceramics don't really compare, while new generations of better ceramics come out daily and affordably their popularity will grow as sets collectors will eventually be priced out of the clays (Most already are) and will become a true luxury item through manipulation.

In the end I believe that the sets world has become less about the chips and more about the money to be extracted from the chips and there is still enough folks willing to bend over and pay, sometimes even putting them in a tight spot. I've seen it happen, collectors get manipulated into paying high prices and suddenly can repair their home, fix their car, pay medical bills, etc. etc. and now I see some resort to asking the "Community" for financial assistance to survive without even having a sale ad up for the 1000's of chips they have accumulated over time that has them in the bind.

You have to give it to the singles collectors, even if they manipulate the price of a chip, your own research can justify what you may want to pay. and if you do pay too much at least it was only for a chip not for 1000 chips.

last thing, and its to think about. Why is the Nevada Club Nevada lodge $1 1/4 pir selling at $3.50? a leaded beauty, and a tiger chip, not even a real casino chip, $10-$15 or the other NAGB's now less revered at $5-$7 a chip the was once $15-$20???? Is it chipping? or Moneying?
 
UnicornFlash said:
My bigger worry with clay to your thriving market question is that all clay chips might eventually become like TRKs--only a handful have them, which results in them becoming so valuable and rare that they aren't accessible and thus become an afterthought for many.
Click to expand...
Great write up @UnicornFlash. I’m quoting this portion of it because I do own TRKs and I believe there is lots of misconception about them out there.

What I think many people don’t understand about the TRK market is that it’s limited to EVERYONE, even to those of us with sets.
A person who collects TRKs does so for much different reasons than people who collect everything else. It takes a certain kind of passion to want to spend YEARS assembling a playable set. Most people DON’T have that in them. For most it’s about the NOW and not about the WHAT COULD BE.

Anyone though with a passion for WHAT COULD BE, does have access to the so called “CLUB.”
All anyone has to do is want it and want it bad enough.
What I learned in my journey is this, one typically has to earn the respect of the TRK collectors before they’ll take you seriously enough to work with you. And even then the help is usually very limited at best because TRKs are tough to come by period.

For myself the journey was mostly about my love of history, the challenge of recreating it and the opportunity to eventually own something truly rare and of my own story.
It’s not a journey for everyone but it’s a journey like NO OTHER.
I tell people I’d rather give my sets away to someone with my same passion than sell them to someone who will turn around and extract every nickel possible out of my work.

I believe these are shared views by most in this limited “club” and one doesn’t really understand it till they get well into their journey.
My personal sets will always be accessible to any lover of chips if they happen to be at a meet up that I attend.
The chips were meant to be played and I personally enjoy sharing that opportunity with others.
 
DuckPlug said:
Great write up @UnicornFlash. I’m quoting this portion of it because I do own TRKs and I believe there is lots of misconception about them out there.

What I think many people don’t understand about the TRK market is that it’s limited to EVERYONE, even to those of us with sets.
A person who collects TRKs does so for much different reasons than people who collect everything else. It takes a certain kind of passion to want to spend YEARS assembling a playable set. Most people DON’T have that in them. For most it’s about the NOW and not about the WHAT COULD BE.

Anyone though with a passion for WHAT COULD BE, does have access to the so called “CLUB.”
All anyone has to do is want it and want it bad enough.
What I learned in my journey is this, one typically has to earn the respect of the TRK collectors before they’ll take you seriously enough to work with you. And even then the help is usually very limited at best because TRKs are tough to come by period.

For myself the journey was mostly about my love of history, the challenge of recreating it and the opportunity to eventually own something truly rare and of my own story.
It’s not a journey for everyone but it’s a journey like NO OTHER.
I tell people I’d rather give my sets away to someone with my same passion than sell them to someone who will turn around and extract every nickel possible out of my work.

I believe these are shared views by most in this limited “club” and one doesn’t really understand it till they get well into their journey.
My personal sets will always be accessible to any lover of chips if they happen to be at a meet up that I attend.
The chips were meant to be played and I personally enjoy sharing that opportunity with others.
Click to expand...
I love TRK's @DuckPlug !! I hate extracting every last dime!!!! If you're giving them away........... I'm your huckleberry!!!! Did I mention how handsome you are Matty????
 
The Chip Spa said:
I love TRK's @DuckPlug !! I hate extracting every last dime!!!! If you're giving them away........... I'm your huckleberry!!!! Did I mention how handsome you are Matty????
Click to expand...
Half price or a 2013 Shelby GT 500 with low miles for you my friend. ;) After all what’s better than a Shelby in my garage, :unsure: TWO Shelby’s in my garage of course. :ROFLMAO:
 
Pinkdan said:
Will clay chips ever die?
Click to expand...
My short answer to this is: I hope not. Maybe generic poker players view chips as mere "tools of the trade" and don't really care about exactly what they are but more about what they represent. MONEY.

Being a chip freak, nothing feels as good as a (compression molded) clay chip. I believe I've owned every type of these and it's really, really close as to what particular one is my favorite in regards to feel. Paulson THC, TRK and Blue chip were all equally loved, with ASM (now CPC) coming in sightly behind those.
I've also played with everything else. A well made ceramic is fine too, but on a different level from clays. I have samples of the Cap Dash chips and I love them. The other classes are ok, but by no means impress me. At that point they become utilitarian tools to make bets with. Oddly, I will give an "honorable mention" to the "China clays". Great feel, similar to real clays when new, but they break down over time which ruins the whole thing which is why a poor attempt to duplicate something will fail.
I never underestimate the ability of the Chinese to duplicate a product. They seem to do best with mass production type things so that leads me to believe they'd never try to duplicate compression molded clays. I think if one of them was successfully able to do it, they'd be selling a LOT of them! I mean they do have a huge number of people there and could have armies stuffing colored inserts into the base chips as they were being produced. But probably not as I think the modern Chinese would rather use technology over manpower.
Still, if the profit motive was there, they could. They seem to get their hands on all kinds of proprietary techniques to duplicate products so why not compression molded clay formulas?
 
KingZilla said:
why not compression molded clay formulas
Click to expand...
Probably for all the same reasons that nobody else is doing it presently. You'd need to build unique machines to press a unique clay formula you've developed, using unique molds and unique color formulas. ALL of that to hope to sell overpriced chips to a tiny niche market? Even if the Chinese could steal all the necessary technology and recipes, they'd probably decide it isn't profitable enough.

And to answer the original question, yes, clay chips will die and they'll die soon. I wouldn't be surprised if theyre gone within a decade, and I would be surprised if they're not gone within two. With the RFID or whatever technology that we have today, the idea that chips need to by physically unique to be secure is kind of laughable.
 
upNdown said:
With the RFID or whatever technology that we have today, the idea that chips need to by physically unique to be secure is kind of laughable.
Click to expand...
This, plus the idea of "virtual" chips: Everything being done digitally on a digital poker table as well. I guess I don't accept some technology advances. I doubt I'd ever trust a flop, turn, river that is computerized. I believe that was done with an online poker site? Programmed results? I can tell you that early on I played online sites and I saw SO many "coolers" as compared to live poker, and I play live poker very often.
 
Death of Clay? Personally, I don't think so as Chip collector is already a small group initially and demand is always going exceeding the supply.

But as new chippers now have more cheaper options available to them now, lesser of them is going to make the next "Step up" to owing Clay chips.

So prices of most clay have DROPPED and will continue to drop as the trend continue, so if you bought chips priced at the peak (2-3 years ago) you are going to suffer some losses.
 
Last edited:
Use both
Plastic shell with clay cookie filling
Best of both
Official casino 8g weight

IMG_4690.jpeg
 
KingZilla said:
This, plus the idea of "virtual" chips: Everything being done digitally on a digital poker table as well. I guess I don't accept some technology advances. I doubt I'd ever trust a flop, turn, river that is computerized. I believe that was done with an online poker site? Programmed results? I can tell you that early on I played online sites and I saw SO many "coolers" as compared to live poker, and I play live poker very often.
Click to expand...
Walking through some casinos other weekend the craps tables were of course full (and loud) while the computerized version they have now had one guy playing it...gives a little hope.
 
Admodeus said:
Walking through some casinos other weekend the craps tables were of course full (and loud) while the computerized version they have now had one guy playing it...gives a little hope.
Click to expand...
Craps was my initial obsession! Love the game! I've had some fun on the bubble Craps machine but it will NEVER replace the old school table!!

I do however want so badly to play on the hybrid table..... Live Dice but no chips... Again nothing beats throwing those chips out there!!!!

 
The Chip Spa said:
Craps was my initial obsession! Love the game! I've had some fun on the bubble Craps machine but it will NEVER replace the old school table!!

I do however want so badly to play on the hybrid table..... Live Dice but no chips... Again nothing beats throwing those chips out there!!!!

Click to expand...
Couldn't agree more!

1715278071370.png
1715278078940.png
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top