Yep Chip Talk of past
Chip Talk 2008; Interesting. Did anyone here ever experience a raid on a home game?
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That post seems familiar. Was it from ChipTalk? I believe that's where I read it, long ago. I don't know who has money to pay attorneys to challenge such actions and I am not an attorney. I would think that what someone does in the privacy of their own home would be a "gray area" that could challenge these laws (4th Amendment). Most of these activities are NOT open to the public, they are private individuals in their own home and the activities are by invitation only. I think that would compose a "gray area". If said activity is open to the public, then it's evidently illegal.
I have never been in a game that was raided. As a matter of fact, there is a weekly tournament at a pub near me which is open to the public. I know the guy who runs it and they've never had a challenge or problem from law enforcement. I guess it depends on the State and/or Municipality you're in.
It seems like some of the cops played in the above game as undercover operatives to detect unlawful activity. I wonder if anyone in that game was charged with a "crime"?
My understanding of my local area is that if no one is making money from the administration of poker games, then no law is broken. So no rakes or other "entry fees" are acceptable and that certainly is the case anywhere I play near here (other than Casinos).
I have never been in a game that was raided. As a matter of fact, there is a weekly tournament at a pub near me which is open to the public. I know the guy who runs it and they've never had a challenge or problem from law enforcement. I guess it depends on the State and/or Municipality you're in.
It seems like some of the cops played in the above game as undercover operatives to detect unlawful activity. I wonder if anyone in that game was charged with a "crime"?
My understanding of my local area is that if no one is making money from the administration of poker games, then no law is broken. So no rakes or other "entry fees" are acceptable and that certainly is the case anywhere I play near here (other than Casinos).
Read this article while cleaning up some old content, still wondering, ever heard of a "Raid"?
This sent me looking, I guess in WI there's no fun allowed!!!!
945.02 Gambling. Whoever does any of the following is guilty of a Class B misdemeanor:
(1) Makes a bet; or
(2) Enters or remains in a gambling place with intent to make a bet, to participate in a lottery, or to play a gambling machine; or
(3) Conducts a lottery, or with intent to conduct a lottery, possesses facilities to do so.
History: 1977 c. 173.
Games such as “Las Vegas nights" constitute illegal lotteries; the law does not exempt benevolent and nonprofit organizations. 70 Atty. Gen. 59.
945.02 Gambling. Whoever does any of the following is guilty of a Class B misdemeanor:
(1) Makes a bet; or
(2) Enters or remains in a gambling place with intent to make a bet, to participate in a lottery, or to play a gambling machine; or
(3) Conducts a lottery, or with intent to conduct a lottery, possesses facilities to do so.
History: 1977 c. 173.
Games such as “Las Vegas nights" constitute illegal lotteries; the law does not exempt benevolent and nonprofit organizations. 70 Atty. Gen. 59.
Ok, today sucked in a major way. Here’s the scoop!
At approximately 2:30pm PST, San Mateo County Sheriffs Dept raids our home game (it was the season ending freeroll tourney). 10+ armed (and some heavily protected) officers stormed into the home where we play a majority of our home games – with guns drawn. [UPDATE: it was NOT a SWAT team as some publications seem to have misinterpreted/inferred. Simply a mix of some heavily protected and some standard issue patrol gear wearing officers...including the presence one door smasher/battering-ram which was NOT used.] 20 of us were there for the freeroll tourney. They asked if anyone had weapons, instructed us to keep our hands on the table where they could be seen, immediately asked for specific individuals, told us that we’d each be interviewed separately, and then would be free to leave.
Mind you, this has become a tight group with over 100 friends who meet regularly to play low-stakes Hold ‘em (6 to 25 at a time typically). Each of the 20 present was interviewed separately. Questions asked of us covered topics such as: who was present in the past, were there rebuys, did we suspect cheating, did we suspect marked cards, did we suspect anyone was taking money from the prize pool, did I ever win, was there any kind of secret code or code name or code word (WTF????) , and a few others I can’t remember off the top of my head.
The AMAZING thing to me was that all of us were completely calm during the whole ordeal. Why? We’re all good citizens. We all believed that we weren’t doing anything wrong. There was no lip service to the officers…only cooperation. In fact, after just a few minutes we were bantering with each other (with hands on the table where they could be seen, of course) as if we were still playing. This group has become more than justgood GREAT poker players – we’ve become friends. We had a fantastic Holiday party together in December, and tonight we were going to celebrate the end of the season by going out to dinner together at a local restaurant. Several of our players had enjoyed participating in the US Poker Bowl with well-known professionals this past October (as the San Francisco Kings) and were looking forward to their 15 minutes of fame on Fox Sports this spring when the event was to be televised. We were excited about the recent growth of the group and were going to invest in chips and cards in order to accomodate the growth. The feedback from players (newbies and long-timers) was always positive and everything seemed to be on the up-and-up with a concerted effort to ensure that player comfort and safety was priority #1. Evidently the San Mateo County Sheriff’s Dept thought otherwise.
Anyway, after my “interview” I stuck around long enough to observe 3 things that I think are relevant:
1) One of the officers with helmet and full-on riot gear looked familiar. As I left, I realized that I recognized him as a person who’d played with our group before. He played recently, and perhaps only once or twice.
2) When I was outside heading to my car, I noticed another officer going through the car of the organizer of the day’s event. He’d played with us several times. As a side note, I’d nicknamed him “Moolah Muerta” (dead money) because he was such a horrible poker player, yet seemed to be quite happy to reach into his pocket to rebuy as much as possible during rebuy tourney. I even remember thinking to myself that it seemed as if this guy was so reckless that he couldn’t have been playing with his own money…or that he had TONS of it for some reason. Turns out it was the Sheriff’s money! He claimed he’d recently moved to the area and joined the group to make new friends. On his second visit, this guy shows up with a very attractive female companion (way out of his league) – who, I’m assuming was also involved in the sting. For someone who just moved here, he sure seemed to be bringing lots of friends into the group (officer from #1 above as well as the female companion/spectator). That, plus the whole “Moolah Muerta” thing should have been setting off the alarm bells, but he was a pretty friendly guy who I assumed was no different than most of us who watched the neverending WSOP coverage on ESPN, and hoped to learn to play better…which was always my impression of what this group was about (all skill levels welcome…open feedback environment, etc). Anyway, in retrospect nobody could be that unskilled, yet that willing to keep reaching into his/her pocket. It seemed weird, but I figured he was new and just wanted to make friends – maybe he was willing to buy friends…I’ve seen it in the movies, so it wasn’t too far fetched of an idea.To make things more interesting, there’s a slight possibility that [ie, this is speculation...as the name in the email was spelled "Mark" instead of "Marc"] this is the person who sent an email to the whole group saying that he would be there to watch the freeroll and play in any side-tourney/ring game AND that he’d be bringing a few friends along. In retrospect, a delicous touch to the whole afternoon I thought. Bringing ”friends”…how clever. [the author has reason to doubt the accuracy of the previous statement at this time based on new information] Anyway…on to #3
3) Several neighbors approached me as I got my dog into the car. They asked me if I knew what was happening (10+- squad cars lined up in the street seemed to attract a few lookie-lou’s). I told them we played poker there regularly. The few people I talked to, said, “is that all? How much did you play for?”. When I told them the stakes, they were shocked (at how low). They all wished they knew because they said they would have been there playing too! An older gentleman asked if we played 7-card-stud…I said, “no…pretty much just Hold ‘Em”. He said, “figures” and added something to the tune of (ie, not the exact quote), “these guys should be out dealing with a real crime, not messing with you guys. I never heard a tire squeal, a voice raised, a loud radio, or noticed people coming and going…everyone parked legally and stayed for 3-5 hours…I never had any reason to suspect something dangerous was going on”. Hello!!!! Does that not sum it up? One person even said, “Isn’t there a meth lab somewhere that they could be shutting down instead?”…which I thought was spectacular!
In my opinion, the officers did have 2 valid comments while they were there scaring the crap out of us:
1) We were lucky that it was them that barged in, and not a couple of people wearing ski-masks making us lay on the floor at gunpoint with the intention of robbing us
2) “We don’t think you’re doing anything wrong.” and “We play poker too”…those were my personal favorites. (Tsk, tsk, tsk…”anything you say can, and will, be used against you in a court of law”)
As for their intentions, I don’t know. The undercover guys know for a fact that they could have sent a single officer to the door, armed only with a kitten for protection, and gotten the same amount of cooperation from our group. So their tactics seem a bit overkill. If they were “protecting and serving” the players because of some kind of wrong-doings…if myself (and others) were in some kind of physical danger, then I’m ok with what went down today. That’s what we pay them to do. Way cool with that. Protect me, serve me…sometimes I am a complete idiot and cannot make my own decisions – in which case, I’ll take all the help I can get to avoid bodily harm and/or financial ruin!
However, if there’s something else going on here (or NOT going on here), and the 2 or 3 people who were involved in the sting operation carried out this whole endeavor under false or incorrect beliefs, then I truly hope their careers and reputations are affectedaccordingly irreparably. I’m uncertain of the validity of some of the allegations that two of the officers made regarding the character of the game organizer – but suffice it to say, they were defamatory if they turn out to be untrue. With my somewhat limted knowledge at this point, I personally DON’T believe what they said about the organizer. I may be wrong…I may be a sucker…but I’ve NEVER had a reason to suspect any wrong-doing. That may be because I’m naieve to the law regarding home games, but I’ve NEVER felt that I was cheated.
I hope this blows over, turns out to be unfounded, and that the San Mateo County Sheriff’s Dept has made a mistake. Accountability is #1 to me. If the SMCSD is wrong, they must be held accountable. If there’s been any intentional wrongdoing on the part of the group organizer, they must be held accountable. Fair is fair!
In the meantime, I’d like to thank all of the regular home game players for their friendship, their passion, their honesty, and for the way those present today carried themselves during this whole debacle…totally professional, totally cooperative, and a true testament to the character of your typical poker player across the globe. Top-notch people in my book…people I’d welcome to my home any time…any day!
Poker players can be good at reading people at times, and I don’t think I’m alone when I say that the faces on some (though not all) of the officers present was one of embarrassment and sheer wonder as to what they were doing there. Some of the things a few of them said backed that feeling up. I genuinely feel that more than one of them felt very hypocritical about their involvement in the raid. Anyway, as I alluded earlier – I just hope everyone is accountable for their actions and statements…including the SMCSD. I hope I’m not a sucker. I hope you’re not a sucker.
At approximately 2:30pm PST, San Mateo County Sheriffs Dept raids our home game (it was the season ending freeroll tourney). 10+ armed (and some heavily protected) officers stormed into the home where we play a majority of our home games – with guns drawn. [UPDATE: it was NOT a SWAT team as some publications seem to have misinterpreted/inferred. Simply a mix of some heavily protected and some standard issue patrol gear wearing officers...including the presence one door smasher/battering-ram which was NOT used.] 20 of us were there for the freeroll tourney. They asked if anyone had weapons, instructed us to keep our hands on the table where they could be seen, immediately asked for specific individuals, told us that we’d each be interviewed separately, and then would be free to leave.
Mind you, this has become a tight group with over 100 friends who meet regularly to play low-stakes Hold ‘em (6 to 25 at a time typically). Each of the 20 present was interviewed separately. Questions asked of us covered topics such as: who was present in the past, were there rebuys, did we suspect cheating, did we suspect marked cards, did we suspect anyone was taking money from the prize pool, did I ever win, was there any kind of secret code or code name or code word (WTF????) , and a few others I can’t remember off the top of my head.
The AMAZING thing to me was that all of us were completely calm during the whole ordeal. Why? We’re all good citizens. We all believed that we weren’t doing anything wrong. There was no lip service to the officers…only cooperation. In fact, after just a few minutes we were bantering with each other (with hands on the table where they could be seen, of course) as if we were still playing. This group has become more than just
Anyway, after my “interview” I stuck around long enough to observe 3 things that I think are relevant:
1) One of the officers with helmet and full-on riot gear looked familiar. As I left, I realized that I recognized him as a person who’d played with our group before. He played recently, and perhaps only once or twice.
2) When I was outside heading to my car, I noticed another officer going through the car of the organizer of the day’s event. He’d played with us several times. As a side note, I’d nicknamed him “Moolah Muerta” (dead money) because he was such a horrible poker player, yet seemed to be quite happy to reach into his pocket to rebuy as much as possible during rebuy tourney. I even remember thinking to myself that it seemed as if this guy was so reckless that he couldn’t have been playing with his own money…or that he had TONS of it for some reason. Turns out it was the Sheriff’s money! He claimed he’d recently moved to the area and joined the group to make new friends. On his second visit, this guy shows up with a very attractive female companion (way out of his league) – who, I’m assuming was also involved in the sting. For someone who just moved here, he sure seemed to be bringing lots of friends into the group (officer from #1 above as well as the female companion/spectator). That, plus the whole “Moolah Muerta” thing should have been setting off the alarm bells, but he was a pretty friendly guy who I assumed was no different than most of us who watched the neverending WSOP coverage on ESPN, and hoped to learn to play better…which was always my impression of what this group was about (all skill levels welcome…open feedback environment, etc). Anyway, in retrospect nobody could be that unskilled, yet that willing to keep reaching into his/her pocket. It seemed weird, but I figured he was new and just wanted to make friends – maybe he was willing to buy friends…I’ve seen it in the movies, so it wasn’t too far fetched of an idea.
3) Several neighbors approached me as I got my dog into the car. They asked me if I knew what was happening (10+- squad cars lined up in the street seemed to attract a few lookie-lou’s). I told them we played poker there regularly. The few people I talked to, said, “is that all? How much did you play for?”. When I told them the stakes, they were shocked (at how low). They all wished they knew because they said they would have been there playing too! An older gentleman asked if we played 7-card-stud…I said, “no…pretty much just Hold ‘Em”. He said, “figures” and added something to the tune of (ie, not the exact quote), “these guys should be out dealing with a real crime, not messing with you guys. I never heard a tire squeal, a voice raised, a loud radio, or noticed people coming and going…everyone parked legally and stayed for 3-5 hours…I never had any reason to suspect something dangerous was going on”. Hello!!!! Does that not sum it up? One person even said, “Isn’t there a meth lab somewhere that they could be shutting down instead?”…which I thought was spectacular!
In my opinion, the officers did have 2 valid comments while they were there scaring the crap out of us:
1) We were lucky that it was them that barged in, and not a couple of people wearing ski-masks making us lay on the floor at gunpoint with the intention of robbing us
2) “We don’t think you’re doing anything wrong.” and “We play poker too”…those were my personal favorites. (Tsk, tsk, tsk…”anything you say can, and will, be used against you in a court of law”)
As for their intentions, I don’t know. The undercover guys know for a fact that they could have sent a single officer to the door, armed only with a kitten for protection, and gotten the same amount of cooperation from our group. So their tactics seem a bit overkill. If they were “protecting and serving” the players because of some kind of wrong-doings…if myself (and others) were in some kind of physical danger, then I’m ok with what went down today. That’s what we pay them to do. Way cool with that. Protect me, serve me…sometimes I am a complete idiot and cannot make my own decisions – in which case, I’ll take all the help I can get to avoid bodily harm and/or financial ruin!
However, if there’s something else going on here (or NOT going on here), and the 2 or 3 people who were involved in the sting operation carried out this whole endeavor under false or incorrect beliefs, then I truly hope their careers and reputations are affected
I hope this blows over, turns out to be unfounded, and that the San Mateo County Sheriff’s Dept has made a mistake. Accountability is #1 to me. If the SMCSD is wrong, they must be held accountable. If there’s been any intentional wrongdoing on the part of the group organizer, they must be held accountable. Fair is fair!
In the meantime, I’d like to thank all of the regular home game players for their friendship, their passion, their honesty, and for the way those present today carried themselves during this whole debacle…totally professional, totally cooperative, and a true testament to the character of your typical poker player across the globe. Top-notch people in my book…people I’d welcome to my home any time…any day!
Poker players can be good at reading people at times, and I don’t think I’m alone when I say that the faces on some (though not all) of the officers present was one of embarrassment and sheer wonder as to what they were doing there. Some of the things a few of them said backed that feeling up. I genuinely feel that more than one of them felt very hypocritical about their involvement in the raid. Anyway, as I alluded earlier – I just hope everyone is accountable for their actions and statements…including the SMCSD. I hope I’m not a sucker. I hope you’re not a sucker.